Skinny Puppy is currently comprised of original members niVek Ogre and cEvin Key along with Mark Walk (formerly of Ruby). The following is an interview with Ogre.

Having reunited in 2000 for the Doomsday Festival, at what point did you determine that the band would be continuing long-term?

“Well, you never really know these things. But I think that probably when we entered into a three album deal with SPV we knew it would be going for a little bit. That was the telltale sign.”

We had such a great time at Doomsday; it was the event that brought us back together. We didn’t have any acrimony or any kind of weirdness. We still had our normal issues, but we were a little older so we were able to deal with it. That was 13 years ago, and now it’s still something we enjoy doing. For me, there is always something to discover, and certainly never a loss of things to talk about when dealing with the concepts that surround Skinny Puppy. It has become more flavored as time goes on, and more varied and more vibrant in all of those dark cracks and crevices and crannies that need to be explored and maybe illuminated a little bit. So I think it’s something that we both honor in a way at this point.”

Are there any specific ways that your working relationship with cEvin has changed?

“This album we completed without management, and we learned a lesson. We actually got management back in 2004 to help bypass any problems that might come up between us. What seemed like a good idea ended up creating more back and forth between us, no pun intended. After a disastrous third album with SPV–not the album itself but just the business around it–we did this one without management. cEvin and I dealt with the business things we had to in a very pragmatic way through email, very quickly, without having a mediator. As a result, we delivered the record very quickly. That was a bit of a surprise to us–without mediation things actually work better now.”

Is Mark Walk a full-time member of the band now?

“Mark is my writing partner, much in the way that Ken Marshal works with cEvin on a lot of projects. Mark has been very responsible and instrumental in the albums from ‘The Greater Wrong of the Right’ up until now, including this album. Ken Marshall, due to his being in a new relationship and moving back up to Vancouver–he had to back away from the project, so it was really myself, Mark, and cEvin for the writing of the album, and then Ken came in during the last couple of weeks and mixed it.”

Could you discuss the concept behind “Weapon”?

“Skinny Puppy has become kind of amorphous. The days are gone of having to actually rent studio time and block out however many days you’re going to have to stay within budget. So things become much more amorphous and non-linear. This concept began developing on the Ohgr tour. We’d met a kid who was a guard at Guantanamo, who actually heard Skinny Puppy music being used–four songs, in fact–to torture people. The idea originally was to call the album ‘Weapon’ and actually make it a weapon, making music to torture people by. We were going to see if we could find documentation on methods used and try to follow them–get the frequencies, the whole deal. We still might do that, but the concept became very grand in scope. On the Ohgr tour, I had a tour manager who works with a lot of sideshow people, and we were actually going to take a torture show on the road. We’d actually waterboard people on stage. It got very pointed and directed in a certain way.

So that was the inception. When I spoke to cEvin we talked about our own arsenal and looking back at how we use to write songs in the past, and that became part of the concept. And then when we started working on it, I was seeing a lot of other abstracts around me that I see as weapons, including the human being itself; actions and politics and spirituality being components of weapons. We are biological weapons. So I was seeing these abstracts that I wanted to pursue. And Fukushima happened. There are all these nuclear plants scattered around, and all of this storage. Yucca Mountain has gone to hell because it’s not safe, and there is nowhere safe to put this stuff. It’s being put in storage pools two stories above the ground that are only supposed to be used to transfer one bundle of fuel rods, and yet those pools are being filled up with waste and are just sitting there as open targets, and are weapons too. So that’s kind of how I progressed over the last couple of years, and of course the world has been progressing as well. It would be easy to say I’m just cherry-picking something like guns, but guns are just the tip of the iceberg and to me there are far more evil things out there there are killing us. Weapons that are kind of in the shadows and obfuscated by things like ‘well, we can boil water with this.’”

At this point, what can we expect in terms of a visual representation of these ideas?

“We’re working on a video with this guy Jason Jensen, who is in a band called The Alacrity. He’s done a short film and has offered to do a video for us. We’re working on a concept with him right now. It’s more touching on the idea of stalking, and these communications devices and devices we use for entertainment purposes that are putting us in the situation of ‘giving away the whole pantry’. Facebook, cell phones, GPS, all the stuff that we embrace and take on which is a huge asset to the intel of any country, really.”

Regarding the concept of looking back at how you used to make music, did you follow through with that?

“We did put it on the table. The rule was originally that we’d only use tools that were available during that time period, so we’d have to go back and resurrect a Studer 2-inch tape machine. It became very cost prohibitive for us to do it that way. And it also became clear that really what we were looking to do was just go back to simple and direct songwriting. I think that Skinny Puppy has gone through a lot of different cycles of evolution and change. We’ve certainly gone through periods of using production tracks and using more simple and direct songwriting that supports a vocal. On this album, there are examples of production tracks, songs like ‘paragUn.’ But we concentrated more on something that was … again, it’s easy to say ‘nostalgic’ but it goes back to more a way of parlaying information and something that’s fun again. In LA, I was going to a lot of these minimal synth shows that were popping up and seeing that people were really embracing a lot of that stuff. And I missed it.

“There’s also the aspect that in this day and age, with electronic music in general, basically anybody with a laptop and a little bit of money can get themselves a digital recording studio and can make music. So to be able to stand out and appear different like we did in the early 80′s, when a lot of people were using pure synthesis and trying to emulate real instruments or create really pure synthetic sounds, we were kind of going ‘well you’re not supposed to press this button, oh that sounds horrible, let’s use this.’ So we stood out like a sore thumb then. Now it’s harder to stand out. Whether that goes into the process …. for me, the process on this album was to have fun writing music again. And to really try to make it as strong and direct as possible.

“So I think that was more of a craft decision after 30 years of doing this, as opposed to trying to go back per se. Referencing those things was great, because I can still go back to ‘Smothered Hope” … when I was young, I sang ‘Withered rope you hang what’s empty can’t remain to put it simply in time cry the hollow words to sing with false disguise’ and I would always think to myself ‘Am I too young to sing this? Is this a song I’d be singing when I’m older?’ And now when I sing this song, it still resonates with me in the same way as when I was young and I thought I was writing a song that was too old for me at that time. It’s a bit of everything, coming from all that stuff that you kind of carry with you from the beginning. The one thing I can do is celebrate the fact I was able to grab some of that stuff and bring it up to the present and parlay it in this way.

“‘Solvent’ was an example of a song that we redid for the reason that we didn’t think it got its fair chance back on that EP [‘Remission’]. But from my point of view, because I couldn’t sing very well back then, I was a bit insecure and never really thought that I’d nailed that vocal. Although the fragility and the sensitivity in the vocals is probably what makes it work. But it was nice to reapproach that. The reboot of it is worthy and valid and strong.”

Has the fact that you don’t need to rely on commercial studios anymore changed the creative process between you and cEvin? Has it become a long-distance collaboration?

“The last time that cEvin and I really worked in a studio together, per se, was for ‘The Process.’ And prior to that, we didn’t work in the studio together, we worked in shifts. I’ve gotten that question a few times and I chuckle a little bit because the one thing that I think is a glue that made the band work all through the years was the fact that there was that separation and surprise. Whether it’s from cEvin hearing when a vocal goes on things, or when I hear a track that is really cool, we’ve always had that distance in our approach to things. Especially since now we live 50 miles away from each other, that process that we’ve used since the beginning has served us well–the only time it was different being ‘The Process,’ which was a catastrophe.”

“The Process” has become one of my favorite Skinny Puppy albums. Looking back, what are your thoughts on it?

“I’ve always loved that album, and I’ve always loved the project that went around it. We did something that I am still really proud of. It was really Bill Morrison, our videographer and the guitar player for Ohgr. He is also a documentary filmmaker. The project part of it was his driving, leading to kind of resurrection of The Process. We got in touch with them. We ended up giving the websites that we created, called process.edu and process.org, back to them in the end.

“They were kind of hiding in the shadows at that time. There’s a book about The Process called ‘Satan’s Power,’ by William Sims Bainbridge. He’s a sociologist who got into The Process at different times. He never was a member per se, but was part of it in a lot of ways, while being removed and objective. You’d go into bookstores asking for that book, and they’d go like ‘oh, no, we don’t talk about The Process.’ It had this Charles Manson sort of curse to it. So the fact that we actually got in touch with a lot of people from The Process, some of the original old members and the elite members, was a fantastic thing.

“Working with Genesis [P-Orridge] was also a fantastic thing. It was a very vibrant time period, and a very tumultuous one. But that seems to follow every Skinny Puppy album, so the tumultuous part wasn’t as critical until Dwayne died, and then it became very real. But I think the album itself was an incredible dynamic of really pushing and pulling between us and conflict. Whether it still resonates in that way I don’t know, but I’m very proud of how it turned out, and for me was kind of the first album where I stood away from using distortion and effects. I was tracking all vocals dry, and it was the first, fearful step into that direction.

“It’s a strong record. It didn’t get its due partially because of American Recordings, and partially because being different from other albums, it was a hard pill for people to swallow initially.”

For more info on The Process, check out this post by Morrison http://www.process.org/discept/2007/12/31/and-begin/

Since both you and cEvin have other projects, what determines when the time is right to return to Skinny Puppy?

“It’s kind of a natural thing. There’s an email that comes and we slip into the mode. After 30 years of doing this, you have kind of a sense as to when it is right to start working on the next album, and when it’s not and is best to give it some time to breathe a little bit. I can’t put my finger on exactly what the impetus is and the catalyst. Time goes by, and you just want to do this again. The other part is the business side of it; a time opens up where we’re able to do it through a label and stuff like that. When it comes time for us to self-release, we’ll see what the impetus is then to get things going.

“I think for me, for ‘Weapon’ at least, it was a concept, and the concept went through a huge kind of evolution, which I’m happy about. It shows me that even though I think I’m a very lazy person, there’s a lot going on in my unconscious because concepts keep moving forward. I think that’s what does it for me. Ohgr is more of a musical thing, which I really enjoy doing, equally as much and sometimes even more. Because there’s just my paintbrush along with Mark’s on the palette. Making music by committee, and within Skinny Puppy, is a bit tougher because there are more people involved. But it is equally rewarding. And again, we all have a reverence for Skinny Puppy and what it has done for us as people, both internally and as far as our careers go as well.”

Since the Skinny Puppy sound is constantly evolving, I’m curious as to how influenced you are by audience feedback?

“You listen to how people react…whether I’ve changed my vocal sound a bit or whatever….I certainly do listen to people, but I don’t let it determine what I do if I’m dead set and headstrong in another direction. But I certainly take things into consideration. I think on this album, there is definitely a desire for me to go back to a voice that maybe I’d left behind a little bit. I’ve always used it, but in the mid 90′s I had taken some vocal training and kind of veered away from that voice because I had a fear of losing my voice, which I was doing every night after every show prior to the vocal training. So over the last 17 years, I’ve been using those vocal exercises. With this album, I was going back to that voice, but with a new strength. Finding that new strength was a surprise, the cherry on the cake, so to say. Now I have that tool back in my palette. “

Are you planning on going on tour to support “Weapon”?

“We’re looking right now for the fall, probably October or November, to go on a US tour…although we haven’t secured an agent yet, so it’s all kind of up in the air right now. I have a concept in mind that’s more intimate than people might expect from ‘Weapon,’ utilizing masks, of course [laughs]. So I’m working on that now, just kind of sculpting out my ideas for a stage show to correspond with it. The most difficult thing for me about Skinny Puppy is that I’m kind of responsible for the staging, and that includes all of the visuals and theater, the construction and all of that. So it’s a bit daunting. But I’ve got a concept, and once the concept is there the rest falls into place.”

“Weapon” will be out May 28 on Metropolis Records – click here to pre-order.

Other interviews with Skinny Puppy members:

cEVIN KEY, interviewed in 1995, focusing on Download
cEVIN KEY, interviewed in 1997, focusing on Download
Ogre, interviewed in 2008, focusing on ohGr and “REPO! The Genetic Opera”
Ogre, interviewed in 2011, focusing on ohGr.

Was it always the intention to self-release “The Unraveller of Angels” over Bandcamp, or were you exploring label release but unable to find a suitable arrangement?

We have released our music with many labels over the years of course… from smaller independents at first to bigger labels recently like Metropolis in the USA…. i always enjoyed the support and enthusiasm of the better smaller labels… and i’ve always been totally involved myself in promoting my work.. i looked at different ideas for the Unraveller… and times have changed… limited releases in different formats are the key these days… so i have worked with a small German label on this release – Psych-KG – who have produced 2 different CD versions and soon a vinyl version of the Unraveller of Angels… Our deal has seen us being “paid” with a percentage of the pressing and so I’ve been promoting and selling it myself directly through our bandcamp page and through our contacts at DIG music on all the major download platforms…it has been doing really well so far so i believe i made the right choice…:)

While your music has been quite varied over the years, there definitely seems to be common threads, such as types of instrument sounds and vocal arrangements. Do you feel that there is an ‘Attrition sound’ that you are conscious of when you compose/record, or does it purely come naturally?

I know there is an “Attrition” sound…i think most established acts find their own voice and even when the instruments change or the producers or the guest musicians…that voice shines through… it has to come naturally…. i don’t see it as an attrition “brand” that i am selling… and even though there is a common strand running through all the releases i could never predict how it may change in the future…its a reflection of my life experience…

How do you tend to balance your time between Attrition and your work on other projects with your The Cage studio?

Well i’ve had the studio for 20 years but only took it up commercially 2 years ago after i finished teaching music technology at the college here… so the mastering and production work filled those hours at first… although its now getting busier and busier as more bands and labels are coming to me… and the studio is really my “day job”.. so sometimes it’s difficult to fit everything in… especially with the new ATTRITION album launch and promo video filming and touring…. it’s been crazy lately…. but having started the tour and with the album out things are getting a little easier to manage right now… at least for a while… but i love it…i wouldn’t have it any other way…

Do you feel that the other production and mastering work you do has any impact on what you do as Attrition? For example, have you been particularly inspired by any other project you’ve worked on? Have any led you to pick up production techniques that ended up being useful with Attrition?

yes of course… going back to the first remixes i ever did for other bands 20 years ago i always learnt from other peoples work, especially in the early days… the sounds and arrangements …although the production techniques have been mostly mine as i am producing their music but even then i learn all the time…it’s essential to keep growing… and there’s also the industry contacts that have increased so much since i started working with so many bands and labels… and it goes both ways… we all help each other out… that cooperation is important to me…

You started off with a fanzine, and I actually discovered Attrition through the zine Music From The Empty Quarter. How do you feel about websites and blogs taking over much of what zines accomplished in the past?

I ran 18 printed issues of my fanzine Alternative Sounds here in Coventry from 1979 – 81… and then ATTRITION took over… i loved that punk and post punk scene… again the cooperation was a wonderful thing…which slipped away a little… and now the fanzines are coming back as webzines and blogs…and it’s excellent… ok maybe we are bombarded with a million tweets and posts all the time…. but i think we adjust to the change… we can do things now that we could only dream about in the 80′s…

Could you discuss the various collaborators on the new album, and how you came to work with them?

As ATTRITION for many years has been basically my own project, i’ve also found it inspiring to work with other creative people as guests on my work… and not only musicians but also artists and filmmakers…. on this album i have worked with people from the UK and Germany and Canada and the USA… again with the ease of the internet bringing us together it’s so easy to collaborate this way… Mona Mur, Matt Howden, Anni Hogan, Erica Mulkey/Unwoman, Ian Arkley, Jyri Glynn, Joanna Dalin are just some of the guests… bringing some beautiful extra vocals and strings and piano to the mix… i’m really pleased with their contributions… and there were more that didn’t make the final mixes… but they may well see the light of day further down the line…

What are you feelings about music consumers who may now just be streaming on services like Spotify rather than buying physical or download releases? Is the current bonus remix album an effort to encourage to purchase rather than just stream?

Its interesting that not so long ago it was the cassette that troubled people..then the CDR… then illegal downloads… and as things adjusted to take on board the new, something else comes along… and now it is the streaming services… people no longer even need to own music…physical or virtual… as long as they find it on the streaming platforms…and that has a long way to go… and yes there are problems when music is virtually free all the time.. but there benefits too and it was never something i did for money anyway… one of the ways that people are supporting musicians these days is giving them that something extra…and i have been giving gifts and making extra tracks available for a little while now… it works… for now… until we are all a part of the matrix…

What are your touring plans? When you tour in support of an album, besides performing the new material, do you just try to do a cross section of what fans want, or are you thinking about what older material would work particularly well in a set with the new?

We have just  started a series of live shows across the world in support of The Unraveller of Angels… we played Athens in Greece and it was an amazing start… we loved it there… next was the Roundhouse in London … i don’t base the live show on what the fans want, rather what we all want to play… and its usually a mix of a good amount of recent material with a few old songs in there too… and we also prefer a more uptempo set rather than the instrumental dark ambient tunes… usually…there are exceptions – we will be playing Invocation – the film score for the US horror movie we made last year at the upcoming Tower Transmissions festival in Dresden in September…a one off……and i’m looking forward to that..

What type of instrumentation do you currently use for the live shows? Has your approach to the sequenced parts (in live performance) changed at all over the years due to changes/improvements with the available technology?

Well it varies as i bring in guests on stage much like i do on the recordings… but there are usually pre-programmed backing of rhythms and sequences… my vocals and a female voice… currently Tylean or Kerri are singing live… and then one or two synth players, of which one is me…and very occasionally some strings or guitar… i don’t think my approach has changed all that much, it’s just that the technology has improved and made things easier and higher quality on stage…and that is as much to do with the PA equipment at clubs as it is with our instrumentation……

You’re working with French filmmaker Daniel Gouyette on a documentary and music videos to accompany the album. What is the status of that? Are you looking to do a physical dvd release, or distribute them online?

Daniel was over here in March and we spent 10 days filming, mostly for the promo videos for the new album… and he has enough footage for at least 3 videos it seems…he’s editing now!… the documentary will take a few visits and at least a year to make…Daniel is interviewing me of course…but also local people here in my hometown of Coventry for background information..and the plan is to involve other bands and labels i have worked with over the years to make a wider picture that i know will be an interesting documentary… i don’t think there has been anywhere near enough documentation of this “scene”…whatever that is… and i am excited about it… i think a short DVD run and online too…much the same way as music is, will be the plan…. we shall see…

For more info on Attrition:

www.attrition.co.uk
www.facebook.com/ATTRITIONMUSIC
http://attritionuk.bandcamp.com/
www.youtube.com/user/attrition
https://twitter.com/attritionuk
www.thecagestudios.co.uk

What type of material are you doing on the current tour?

“Most of the songs we’re playing are from our new album, which is called ‘Cactus Versus Brezel.’ But we also like to play the old hits that people want to hear. Because we want them to be happy!

We have songs in Japanese, English, German, French, and Spanish. It’s good to study languages. If you want to learn everything with a French accent, it’s perfect!”

What determines what language a song will be in?

“Normally, for the songs which are in French, German, or English, I just get an idea in a certain language, so I don’t really think about it. Sometimes I have a little phrase that comes into my head in German, sometimes in French, rarely it is in English immediately. For the others, I can speak a little bit but cannot really work in these languages, so I just ask some people to make translations of the songs. Generally, the songs in German are completely different from the songs in French, because the way of writing songs in German is completely different. When I write songs in German, normally I need a really funny idea–something really original and funny.”

How is it different performing in different countries, where the general native language of the audience differs?

“We always have different set lists, depending on where we are playing. If we go to South America, we play much more songs in Spanish, and on this tour we are trying to play more songs in English. It depends where we play. And when we play [in] other languages, we explain what the songs are about.”

Can you talk about the making of ‘Cactus Versus Brezel’?

“We recorded it all in Los Angeles in a studio that has equipment from the 50s and 60s. We recorded with big tape machines and huge, old fashioned microphones. We recorded it a bit like the Beatles would have recorded! We didn’t use any computers at all. It’s all analog. If somebody buys a vinyl record, this object will never have been in touch with digital. It’s completely old fashioned. We wanted to do that because we noticed that the analog sound is much more warm and alive than digital sound. And also we wanted it to sound more like a live show. So we played everything live and had only eight tracks to use. The only things that we did later on were the vocals and some little solos. It’s not sounding perfect, but it’s sounding really warm and human. That’s what we wanted to do.”

What tracks have you had the best response to so far?

“In Europe, the song on the radio, especially in Germany where we come from, is ‘Die Frau in der Musik’. It’s a very feministic sound about the the position of the female musician in the male music world. It’s really a funny song. Other songs that people like are “Pixelize Me” and also a song that we recorded in five minutes at the very end of our recording sessions called “We Don’t Wanna Dance.” We’ll see in the tour which songs people like best in the US.”

The album just came out in the US, but wasn’t it originally released last year overseas?

“It came out last fall in Europe. We wanted to wait [for a US release] until we could go on tour, rather than releasing a recording and going on tour months later.”

What made you use ‘Cactus versus Brezel’ as the title?

“The title is kind of an accident. The designer took this drawing and was putting some letters on it, and put ‘Cactus versus Brezel’. So we kept it for the title. Everyone is asking us, ‘did you have a big argument?’ Well, ok, we’re always having arguments when we are making music, but that is normal.”

When creating new music, do you generally start off with lyrical or music ideas?

“Every time it’s different. Sometimes I’ll have an idea for a lyric, sometimes there will be music first and I think about lyrics for it. Sometimes we’ll just be have a jam session. Generally, Brezel is collecting sound ideas and I write lots and lots of songs. I could write ten songs a day, though most of them are shit! [laughs].”

Going back to your being able to write songs very quickly, do you ever go back to older, previously unfinished songs and then complete them?

“Yeah, sure. On this record, for example, there is a song called “Ein Lied für Vegetarier” – this song I wrote on the early 90’s. I don’t throw anything away.”

Previously you had a song called ‘Everybody In The Discotheque (I Hate)’ and the new album has a song with similar subject matter. Could you elaborate on your feelings towards discotheques?

“We have a song on the new album called ‘We Don’t Wanna Dance.’ We are living in Berlin, which is the city of techno discotheque. It’s fun twice a year, but not really our thing. Because in Berlin people are always singing songs about ‘let’s go dancing, we want to have fun, we want to dance and have crazy parties!’ So just to make them angry, we say we don’t like to [laughs]. But’s it’s just a joke, it’s ok.”

“Cactus Versus Brezel” is now out in the US on Kill Rock Stars. The group will next do a series or European live dates; visit their website for more info.

What made you decide that now is the time to start recording again as Ruby?

“I probably should have done it a couple of years ago. My son is getting to that age now where he doesn’t need constant attention from his mother. So now I have time, and an overwhelming need to do something creative.”

Had you been thinking about music over the years? Did you do any songwriting?

“Yes, definitely, I’d been thinking about it off and on for quite a few years. Everyone around me for years had been saying ‘you’ve got to make another album.’ And I was saying ‘yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever.’ And then in 2008, I got my brother to send me some guitar equipment so that I could see if I could still write a song. I wrote one of the songs that is on the album from that. A song called “Pulling Teeth.” It was a really nice song, but then other things conspired to get in the way. Before I knew it, another three years had passed.”

Is Mark Walk still involved with the project?

“No, he hasn’t been involved since the last one, ‘Short Staffed at the Gene Pool.’ We kind of broke up on not very good terms during the last one, so it was never in the cards that we’d work together again.

Was there ever a question as to whether to continue to use the name Ruby?

Initially, I was questioning whether to use it after this amount of time. Specifically, because there are a lot of other Rubys around now. But it doesn’t really seem to matter, and it was my project to begin with, really.”

What are your feelings on the changes the music industry has undergone since the last album, with the growth of the internet?

“For the most part, I find it really exciting because it just seems to open everything up, and it’s not about genres of music anymore so much. I think that people’s tastes have become much more eclectic because of it. I think that people are more open to listening to different forms of music, and in a lot of ways it is a lot easier to find music. I don’t use Spotify nearly as much as I should. Every platform that you use is constantly giving you suggestions similar to what you’ve been listening to, so in a lot of ways it’s easier. And of course you don’t have the tastemakers at the gate anymore, the guards on the gate telling you what you should be listening to.”

What made you choose “Waiting for the Light” to be the first new track you made available?

“I think because it was really personal to me. I always just go on gut instinct with pretty much everything. And to me that stood out as a new track to go with because it’s very simple and very personal. And it’s a departure from the songs that I’d done before, it’s very minimal and very personal.”

How representative is it of your upcoming album as a whole?

“Nothing is representative of the album. There are probably four different types of songs; it’s a really eclectic album. There are a couple of songs that are kind of like ‘Waiting for the Light’ – quite dark and simple. And then you’ve got the kind of big, loud stuff. And a couple of very electronic, almost dance-type tracks. And there there are some much more subdued, acoustic type of songs. That’s the way I like it, I like doing lots of different stuff.”

How did the process of making the album compare to past releases?

“In a lot of ways it is very similar. When I did it with Mark Walk, we worked on two separate computers, in each others’ houses, basically. This time I have a computer set-up at my house where I started to write the songs and do a bit of the music and recorded the vocals. I was working with my brother, and he has a similar studio set-up in his house where he lives not far from London. We were just sending stuff back and forth in Dropbox. One thing that has changed in the last 12 years quite immeasurably is how easy it is to send stuff back and forth. Almost immediately you’ve got it on your computer exactly the same as the person who sent it to you.“

What effect do you think that long term collaboration has on the creative process?

“There is no chance of jamming like a band in a studio, but I never really like that kind of stuff anyway. It maybe allows you to be more personally expressive, because you’re in a room on your own. I was working with my brother, someone who I trust completely. You can just delve into yourself a bit more. Maybe sometimes that’s a good thing and sometimes a bad thing. It lends itself to a different kind of artistry, I suppose, and allows you to be more personal.

My brother and I are close and know each other really well, so there was no getting to know how the collaboration would work. It just was what it was, as we were completely free and open with each other. It was possibly the smoothest working process I’ve ever had making an album and certainly the most comfortable. I’d really love to do it again. It was great.”

Is the album completely done now?

“We’ve mixed it and have a couple of things to tweak, and that’s about it. We’re going to master it ourselves with software, that saves about five or ten grand. It’s so cool, and it works really well.”

Did you have a strong idea as to how you wanted the album to turn out? How might it have evolved over the process of making it?

“I rely on instinct. One things just leads to another by way of a natural process. I always have kind of an idea of elements of song structure or elements of sound or aesthetics. I’ve got ideas that I want to incorporate, and they usually end up being there in some description, but not necessarily in the way I first intended them to be. Usually I have a mass of ideas floating around and eventually they find their place.”

Do you tend to have musical ideas ready before you start to work at the computer, or do things come about through experimentation?

“It’s a bit of both. At the most basic level, the computer is just a tape machine, a recording instrument that operates in ones and zeros rather than metallic tape. The software definitely leads you to experiment. You can sit around and making little squeaky noises until the cows come home. But really, the things that write the song is the idea in your head. As much time as I’ve spent mucking around with software I spend working with a mouth organ or a little toy instrument or an acoustic guitar. To me, they are just all tools to spark the imagination and get it down in some kind of melodic form.”

Will you be self-releasing or looking for a label to put out the album?

“I’m self-releasing. I don’t see the point in going with a label. Part of the reason I stopped doing music before was because I was so sick of the whole industry side of it. There were a lot of things that I didn’t agree with. I find the idea of self-releasing and self-promoting, and the one-to-one aspect with your fans, to be really exciting. It appeals to me more naturally than going through a third party.”

While the internet makes it easy to let existing fans know what you’re up to, the large amount of music out there can make it difficult to get noticed by new audiences. Do you have a strategy in mind of reaching out to new potential fans?

“I don’t, but my manager does. It’s just hard work, really, finding channels to get to the people who would be interested. I think the way it works is just brilliant. If you can tap into and use the internet widely and effectively, it’s just synapses in the brain all sparking off. People chat and talk to each other and it’s all word of mouth.”

Do you have plans to tour?

“I’d like to do live shows. I don’t think it will be in the near future, I think it will be towards the end of the year at the earliest. There are a few more things to go before that, especially because it’s all self-funded. And right now I only have me for a band! Me and a beatbox and a guitar wouldn’t really cut the mustard, really. I’ve got to get a band.”

Are you looking to have a full band, or rely heavily on electronics?

“A bit of both. I would really like to have at least a four piece band because of some of the bigger songs on the album, and stuff that I’ve done before. I think it really needs that.

Is there anything that you’d been listening to that you think has influenced the new material?

“I think there’s loads and loads of stuff that seeps into my consciousness, a wide range of music. Everything from Vaughan Williams classical stuff to Alt-J, Everything Everything, and everything in between, PJ Harvey and Radiohead, Jesus Lizard still, when that comes up on the iPod I jump with joy. I think it all just seeps in there, and I find all of it inspirational.”

In terms of the making of the album, was it different not having a label involved this time?

“I think I benefited by being with Creation, because they were very hands-off, maybe even more so than I would have liked. Sometimes I felt I would have at least liked an opinion. They were very much of the opinion that you go off and do your thing and then we’ll do our thing. It was similar with The Work Group in the states, as well. I’ve had it pretty lucky, really.”

Did feedback on “Waiting for the Light’ have an influence on you as you completed the album?

“It’s definitely gave me encouragement. If there had been a resounding ‘we hate this!’ from everybody it probably would have been a bummer. But I got a lot of quality feedback, so it really gave me confidence to keep plugging away, doing my own thing.”

When can we expect the album to be out?

“I think it’s probably going to be in April or May.”

To download “Waiting for the Light” go to http://waitingforlight.viinyl.com/. For more info, visit the Ruby website at http://www.ruby-lesleyrankine.com/

What were the motivations behind returning to Pop Will Eat Itself and assembling a new line-up?

I’d been yearning for a return to PWEI ever since the Reformation Shows we did in 2005. I really feel it’s ‘me’, my best work and what I feel I was meant to do! The original band was actually reforming in 2005 but Clint had to pull out as he felt he couldn’t give it enough time to do it justice. So that was that. There was a second attempt and then a third to get the band to reform – to celebrate our 25th anniversary. When this failed I knew it was never going to happen and the only option for PWEI to exist again would be getting a whole new band together. A daunting prospect, but one which I took on.

Was there ever a question as to whether it would go under the name Pop Will Eat Itself, as opposed to just being a new project continuing along the same lines musically?

Yes, various options around the name PWEI were considered, but they all sounded like an apology. Whilst I could see the merit in a different name I couldn’t see the point in fucking around. From 1986 to 1995 I had written nearly 100 songs for PWEI – songs that were meant for a PWEI-like vehicle, so rather than attempt to copy myself…I re-built the vehicle. I’m very thankful to have worked with Clint, Rich, Ad & Fuzz, all very talented as well as great blokes, and that respect would be the main reason not to use the PWEI moniker. But after all the soul-searching there was just too much of me wrapped up in PWEI history, and that was coupled with a belief that I could form a great band true to the PWEI ethos. I’m biased but I think the world is slightly, ever so slightly, almost un-noticeably better with a Pop Will Eat Itself in the present, that people can see & follow.

How did the current line-up come together?

Mary [Byker] was an obvious choice, we’d always got on great over many years. We lived in North London around the same time, had the same friends, went to the same clubs & he’s a great frontman and great guy. My manager Craig Jennings made a few suggestions to complete the line-up and we managed to secure our drummer Jason (Pitchshifter, Killing Joke) this way, but it was difficult to pin down anyone who was of the calibre we wanted as they had other commitments. Eventually we got there though with the help of Rob Holiday (Sulphur, Prodigy), who suggested a couple of his heavily tattooed friends: Tim (Gary Numan & also Sulphur) & Davey (This Burning Age).

As a music fan, I’m sure you’ll agree that hearing that a favorite band is returning, but with only one original member, can spark concern and doubt. Were you conscious of this when putting together the current incarnation of PWEI, in terms of thinking about fan expectations, not coming across as a rehash, etc? Or did you feel that overthinking it would be detrimental, and that it would be best to just see what happens?

Very conscious, and a little over-defensive in hindsight. I learnt what an incredible varied spectrum fans were; some thought it sacrilege, some were ok, let’s watch this guy fall flat on his face, some were saying better this than nothing, and some gushed with good luck messages and best wishes. The thick skin that helped me through my time in ‘original PWEI’ with all the critical panning & backlashes, was the same thick skin that got me through the rebuilding process.

Was all of “New Noise Designed By A Sadist” written specifically for this album? Or where there previously unused tracks or musical ideas that became part of it?

No, not everything was written specifically for this album, and that’s something that’s entirely in keeping with every PWEI album to date. Part of the appeal of the name Pop Will Eat Itself is that it fitted our ethos of recycling. At first, riffs or lyrics and then sampling later. Some of the tracks were demoed as potential Vile Evils tunes (the band I was in with Adam of PWEI) with some, like Nosebleeder Turbo TV originating from as long ago as 1996 as demos for the PWEI album that never was. Anything that’s potentially usable can hang around for years just waiting for the right moment to be used. Others happen pretty spontaneously and work straight away.

PWEI have been known for using quite a bit of sampling, but on later music from the original line-up, as well as “New Noise Designed By A Sadist,” easily recognizable samples, at least, don’t seem to play as big a role. What were the reasons for the change of approach?

Quite simply, the legalities were the reasons. Fear of being sued or having to pay 100% of publishing to greedy publishers. The nervousness started when we first moved to RCA. Such a big company didn’t want complex legal issues hanging around, so the samples that they o.k.’d we’d have to pay for but there would be samples such as the brass riff from Led Zep’s Kashmir and the ‘talking to you’ vocal refrain from Tears For Fears ‘Shout’ that were just outright refused. Also, you just get more skilful at treating samples as a piece of audio to manipulate into something unrecognisable. I think there’s probably more sampled audio on the last album than the first, you just wouldn’t be able to spot it so easily. Perversely, there’s so little money in recorded music these days for a band like us, I’m thinking of going back to the old school methods of recognisable samples, it’s fun and a nod to PWEI history. Might even get a DJ in like on the first two albums, we’ll see. At the moment I just feel the exposure, or re-exposure to PWEI is more important than 100% of a pitiful royalty statement.

Advances in technology and the widespread adoption of the internet have opened up even more opportunities for people to recycle mass media into new creative forms & circulate them – mash-ups, autotune videos, filmmaking within video game worlds, etc. What are your thoughts on this?

No thoughts. I haven’t gotten involved in any of these as it takes all my time just to live the life I live at the moment! I guess it’s great for people who are into those things but I have noticed the lack of real musical ‘movements’ like there used to be. Music was all we used to have so we lived it obsessively. It’s now very diluted.

Are there any particular ways that you feel the evolution of musical technology over the years has affected your creative process and/or the way you record?

Well, like a lot of people now, 100% of the recording can be done on computers, laptops rather than in recording studios. Song parts are swapped & sent back & forth via broadband. The benefits I’ve noticed are not having to spend stupid sums of money in studios and not being such a slave to deadlines.

Looking back, are there any particular ways that perhaps the sound of earlier PWEI was shaped by the state of musical technology at the time?

Yeh, the technology was pretty basic, looking back now. Our original Akai S900 had about 60 seconds sample time or 30 seconds stereo. The Ataris we used always crashed as the song arrangements and number of tracks got more complicated. So you’d end up shouting ‘Save it!’ at Rich who was our chief programmer, several times an hour. I think this made the sampling more ‘static’ as opposed to later on where you could experiment a lot more. You might merge several different treatments of the same sample, or record everything in stereo and use only the side you preferred or lay different programs out along the keyboard and switch midi channels to see if anything interesting cropped up. Things used to take an eternity I seem to remember, the major breakthrough now is the speed at which you can audition sounds & samples so as not to disrupt the creative flow.

How did the recent tour with The Wonder Stuff and Jesus Jones go?

Brilliant, better than we thought it would. There’s a clear division in the audience of who’s into what band, but somehow it works. If you asked each band their influences and favourite artists you’d get radically different answers but if it makes for a good evening’s entertainment, that’s what matters. I think a fair few of the audience were enlightened by finding they really enjoyed a band they’d never followed before.

What’s in the future for PWEI? Do you have new material in the works? More live shows? Any chance for you performing in America?

We’re working on the next album as we speak. No promises as to when it will be out, as I say, I don’t like deadlines. There’ll be more shows when we’ve got something we want to put out & we’d love to come to America.

Are you involved with any other musical projects right now?

No, I don’t have a spare minute!

I was surprised to find “Can You Dig It?” at a karaoke bar a few years back. But while I love the song, it turned out to be a terrible karaoke choice due to the structure of the song. How do you feel about it being available for karaoke?

Ha, that says a lot about the tune! I don’t give a monkey’s about karaoke either way. It’s not my bag, but live and let live. You’re right about that track though, it does all hinge on the vocal & the detail in the lyrics. Some tracks might be all about the groove, like ‘Menofearthereaper’, some about the brutality like ‘Kick To Kill’, but that to me is PWEI, it’s not one dimensional.

For more info and the latest news, be sure to check out  popwilleatitself.net.  Also, check out our 1994 PWEI interview with Clint Mansell.

Your bio says that you started writing the album while on tour and it was completed over a two year period. Could you describe the process a bit? For example, were you focusing on lyrics or also doing initial arranging/sequencing? How complete were the songs when you entered the studio?

Douglas J. McCarthy: I started thinking about the direction I wanted to take with this album whilst still on tour with Nitzer Ebb, namely, more dance/cub orientated. I wanted to try and capture the atmosphere of 80’s and 90’s electronic music without being a pastiche. In between chunks of touring I started writing some basic grooves and basslines mostly using NATIVE INSTRUMENT’s MASCHINE. Then my wife asked me to be involved in an art event called SONIC HORTICULTURE in The Netherlands and Berlin so I fleshed out 4 of my basic ideas and played them live without any vocals. 3 of those 4 tracks actually appeared on the album pretty much as they were but with vocals. I continued writing in this way throughout the process either with Maschine or Logic, sometimes very simple sometimes more “finished” but I would essentially work on the music first then approach the vocals.

Are there tracks that you feel were particularly influenced by where you were when you started writing them?

DJM: not really actual tracks, more the vibe, or my memory of the vibe for each “era” I had in mind. So for ‘The Last Time’ I was thinking very much 80’s New York B-boy but also, say, the British interpretations – Cabaret Voltaire, New Order or Malcom MacLaren for instance.

Was this material conceived from the start as being for a solo release, or was there initially the possibility of it being used for Nitzer Ebb?

DJM: yes, absolutely for my solo project.

You’d left the music industry for a while – are you currently focusing on music full- time?

DJM: I am, well, unless I don’t sell enough of KILL YOUR FRIENDS I am anyway! Hahaha!

Had you considered doing a solo album in the past?

DJM: I have always written songs but either they have appeared on NE releases or they were just for fun, this was the first very conscious decision to put my name forward and central as a solo artist.

When you first started with Nitzer Ebb, the electronic musical technology was much more limited than it is today, making it necessary to creatively work within the confines of available gear. How has the evolution of the technology affected your creative process, both with the later Nitzer Ebb material and your solo album?

DJM: Immensely. It is difficult to fathom (even for me and I was there!) how different the musical and technological landscape was in 1982 when we first started writing and recording. I guess the biggest single change is freedom. The freedom to make music pretty much anywhere at any time and it still for the most part be of the same quality, or sit with a complex Eurorack modular system but running untold passes straight to disk and not worrying about how much tape you’re using etc. Having said that, that very same freedom can generate pretty generic sounds so the basic approach has and never will change – good song, good parts interesting sounds. As Alan Wilder once very helpfully said after critiquing an effort from myself and Bon, “yeah, all we need now are the sounds and the parts”.

While “Kill Your Friends” does have its own identity, the sound doesn’t stray too far from the last Nitzer Ebb release, “Industrial Complex.” Were you giving any conscious thought as to how you wanted it to sound compared to Nitzer Ebb, or were you just open to whatever emerged with the material and collaborators?

DJM: I was very much concerned with making the album sound as “electronic” as possible – little or no guitar etc – so I suspect that gives the air of some of the NE sound but I had made no conscious effort to do so. There is also the fact that my memory of musical influences are closely tied to NE’s so again, not a surprise if there is a crossover.

What are your general thoughts on the changes the music industry has undergone in recent years, as it relates to launching this solo album? For example, while the internet makes it easy to reach out to Nitzer Ebb fans, does the amount of music out there make it a challenge to reach out to new audiences?

DJM: It is a crowded market and even saying market makes it sound as if there is some kind of actual selling going on. I am fortunate that there is a very loyal fan base for NE and now my own solo work. They are extremely aware of the real effects of supporting artists that you like. Things are much quicker than they used to be – people’s attention span has suffered with the internet for sure – but we try to keep a steady flow of things to keep and gain peoples interest.

What made you call the album “Kill Your Friends”?

DJM: The full title, originally, was LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, KILL YOUR FRIENDS. A title that came about through a conversation my wife where having about some people we know who are more than a little erratic and unstable. It was meant as a comical play on the old adage “keep your friends close and your enemies closer”, just us being silly. In the end I thought KILL YOUR FRIENDS sounded punchier and it was easier to do the artwork!

Are you planning on touring to support the album? If so, any idea when and what the live line-up will be?

DJM: Yes, indeed we are. It will be a very minimal setup with Cyrus Rex twiddling knobs on a compact modular system and Jeff Smith playing a couple of keyboards, probably a Moog Little Phatty and a Prophet ’08 with a bunch of effects. We are aiming on NOT having a laptop on stage and instead running all the sequences from an Elektron Octatrack. I’ll be up front pointing and shouting.

You’ve been part of many musical collaborations over the years – have you been involved with anything else recently?

DJM: Yes I have a few that I’ve started, finished and have plans for: KING BRITT; KENNETH JAMES GIBSON’S REVERSE COMMUTER; NICOLE from ADULT; SANNON FUNCHESS from LIGHT ASYLUM are a few that come to mind.

KILL YOUR FRIENDS is out on February 18 and is currently available for pre-order on iTunes. Vinyl and CD copies can be ordered from pylonrecords.com. For more info, and to hear more of the album, visit douglasjmccarthy.com.

According to Ottaviano, Book of Love will be getting together for a series of live shows in the Spring and may put out a new single.

To get a FREE download of the song, visit waitingforlight.viinyl.com.

It’s been a while since your last release. When did you start work on the new album? Had you been touring and/or been involved other projects during that time?

Rob: Binary Sex was really the first single from Dark Matter. All of these songs were more or less written between 2001 and 2006. And we’ve worked on arranging, recording and mixing them since then. We had been touring up until 2006, right through the whole process. We headlined, I don’t know, 4 or 5 U.S. tours plus went out opening for Razed and went out opening for Slick Idiot.

Tasha: (interrupting) Yeah, actually we opened for Razed in Black right as Binary Sex came out in 2003!

Rob: In 2005 we moved down to Louisville to concentrate on music and touring. We lowered our overhead quite a bit by leaving Boston, and Louisville was an easier place, right in the middle of the country, to tour from and do one-off shows.

Tasha: In 2005 we did Wave Gotik, Convergence, Freaks United, Eccentric, San Francisco Fetish Week, and in 2006 we opened of the Slick Idiot Tour. So Louisville worked out really well for a few years.

Rob: (interrupting) Until the shit hit the fan! (laughter) Tax mistakes with MMTM fucked up our life!

Tasha: We had a bad run of luck…

Rob: We hired a terrible accountant.

Tasha: Right! It wasn’t bad luck at all. It was incompetence.

Rob: We were both self employed, each with our own business, and we had a partnership which was More Machine. Our accountant filed our taxes incorrectly for 4 years and had us vastly overpaying taxes. Unfortunately, with tax bills that are erroneously high you are going to fall behind eventually, if you still want to eat. (laughter)

Tasha: The IRS placed a federal lien against us for about $40K!

Rob: You need to say that with the Dr. Evil pinky. (laughter) After firing our accountant, Tasha researched the tax code and made war with the IRS a full time job. We could not afford a lawyer and we could not trust another accountant. This process took several years and was very painful. But Tasha was able to re-file our taxes correctly.

Tasha: The IRS actually had to send us a check for $9K! Unfortunately that was only about half of the amount we overpaid. As incredible as that sounds…

Rob: Another factor in the delay was our 5 year deal with Underground inc. We did not want them to have any right to more of our releases, so we dragged our feet. I know it seems like we have been on a long hiatus to the outside world, but it feels completely different to us. We have been working non-stop on Dark Matter and have been slowly reorganizing our life so that we can continue MMTM without making the same type of mistakes.

Tasha: I hate that we sound like the second segment of Behind the Music, when everything is serious, but that is the truth. And if you listen to the CD, then you realize how serious the situation was because Dark Matter is very much…

Rob: About everything we were going through.

Tasha: And life dictates art and art imitates life. It’s about a bunch of dark situations that happened to us; I got sick, and we were just trying to survive it all.

Rob: We did more than survive: we beat the IRS, we finished the best album we’ve ever done and we relocated AGAIN to Seattle. We’ve been here for a couple of years and we love it.

How might your approach to presenting and promoting your music to the public differ this time around, given the changes that the music industry has been undergoing?

Rob: Holy shit…

Tasha: Well, we are obviously releasing this independently.

Rob: Without a label, considering we’ve had such a bang-up time with labels in the past! (laughter) Black Flames Records was run by a very nice guy, but it was a hobby run out of his bedroom part-time. There isn’t much to be said about Uinc and that whole crowd that hasn’t been said many times, by other people, so we will just leave that alone. (laughter)

Tasha: Right! But we did get some awesome offers for Dark Matter from nice people with more reputable labels than we’ve dealt with in the past.

Rob: I just don’t know if labels make sense anymore. I know none of the deals we’ve ever signed made sense! (laughter) The amount of money that can be generated from selling music is so tiny at this point, it becomes very hard to justify splitting it with a label. The labels in this genre are not doing anything for you that you can’t do for yourself. There really aren’t any labels, that deal primarily with goth industrial, that have the resources to promote the type of huge crossover hit that would be required to justify their involvement. We did shop Dark Matter around to see what opportunities were out there, so we are not anti-label. We just couldn’t make it work for us.

Tasha: Spotify, Pandora, and LastFM have completely changed the way that people to listen to music. It’s like no one listens to entire albums anymore.

Rob: If people even bother to buy music, they cherry-pick 2 or 3 tracks, usually the hit and anything that sounds just like the hit, and dump it in their playlist. And then, ignore all of the other songs on an album. I don’t think most people get that deep into an album anymore.

Tasha: You also need to get your music heard, and there is a lot of competition out there, so…

Rob: (interrupting) You better not suck! (laughter)

Could you talk about the various collaborations on the album, how they came about and what the experiences were like?

Tasha: Let’s see in 2003 we went on tour with Razed in Black. So we developed a relationship with Romell and the guys, that just happens on the road. They were great and it was the best time!

Rob: Initially, Romell was supposed to produce a track for us. We gave him a rough sketch of Stranger than Fiction, which at that point was the title track of the album. Romell actually came up with two separate ideas that were variations in slightly different keys.

Tasha: This was back in what? 2004? Yeah, he sent us MP3s of his ideas while we were on the Incision 2004 Tour.

Rob: We took those two different ideas, even though they were built around different progressions, and edited them up. We built an entirely new arrangement, combining his two ideas into one arrangement.

Tasha: We ended up producing and arranging the track, because we didn’t want Stranger than Fiction to sound too different from the other songs on the album. By the time we got to Stranger than Fiction we had already created a sound design for Dark Matter.

Rob: By combining Romell’s two ideas we created a slight dissonance that made the song much darker. Then we started layering our own harsher synth, guitar and percussion parts on top of it. That song is hooks, upon hooks, upon hooks. Before the vocals were even tracked that song stood up as an instrumental!

Tasha: Romell had killer keyboard hooks and we just added more!

Rob: This was all done remotely passing files back and forth, we never worked with Romell in the same studio space.

Rob: The collaboration with En Esch… was done in trade, actually. You did some graphics and design for Slick Idiot and En Esch produced Deserve for us.

Tasha: It was fun artwork!

Rob: Once again we were passing files back and forth. He produced it and did a new arrangement of it.

Tasha: Yes! En Esch in the flesh! …and on Why?

Rob: We ended up mixing Deserve and doing some work on the final vocals adding a few additional synths.

Tasha: Actually En Esch almost chose to produce Deserve back in 2003 for Binary Sex. But he was concerned that the lyrics to Deserve would sound like they were about KMFDM issues.

Rob: Shit! That’s right! (laughter) For the record: Deserve was not written by, or about, En Esch arguing with anyone. The song was written by Tasha and I about our conflict with someone we used to collaborate with. Let’s just kill that rumor-baby in its crib.

Do you write your music with live performance in mind, in terms of thinking about how electronic or highly manipulated parts will be handled? If not, do you ever run into problems when it comes time to adapt things for live performance?

Tasha: I would have to say that we started off, in 2003, writing and thinking about how it would translate live, but as time went on it was more about expressing ourselves and making the songs sound and feel right. Will it be difficult to sing the 52 harmony parts I tracked to make the chorus sound big enough? (laughter) It’s going to be tough.

Rob: We both come from a heavy metal background, so we are used to the expectation that we can actually sing and play and execute what we did in the studio in front of an audience with a shitty monitor mix! (laughter) If you can’t do that then you shouldn’t be in the game. When I program drums I literally air-drum and visualize how things would be performed live. I think that live-rock element is why our music doesn’t sound like everyone else.

Tasha: I have to admit when I write I don’t think about playing it live. I play something and build on top of that, and build on top of that. Then I edit it and do some wild things to it. That’s how I program.

Rob: But we don’t really manipulate our vocals or guitar parts in any extreme way. We are not dependent on a vocoder, harmonizer, or auto-tune. We are not just doing the whisper-scream into a distortion pedal either. We track our natural voices in the studio, so when we sing into a mic in a club it sounds like our recordings.

Creatively, what extent do you think about what audiences might expect from you vs. what your personal interests and influences drive you do to?

Tasha: I would have to say in 2003, when we were on Uinc, I cared. I wanted it to last, I liked the tours, I liked people screaming my name. It was cool! I wanted more of that. I wanted to sell. I wanted a label to want us. Then I think life happened and it became, “I’ve got to do this for myself.” I can’t write for anyone else, I wouldn’t be a sane person. For me, writing music is a very..ah..selfish thing to do.

Rob: Of course, you want to be successful, I want to be successful. What I want is for people to appreciate what I really want to be doing. I’m not all that interested in adoration if I think what I’m doing to get that adoration…sucks. If I am not creatively satisfied by it.

Tasha: We certainly don’t follow trends.

Rob: No! We’re kind of self destructive, almost. (laughter) When VNV Nation and Apop exploded, a whole bunch of musicians tried to pretend they could sing and bought the same soft synth Ronan Harris was using…You know, a lot of bands that didn’t sound anything like VNV and Apop all of a sudden did everything they could to sound like VNV Nation.

Tasha: Yes, they did. (laughter)

Rob: And everyone ran out and bought it! Though honestly all of the imitators’ songs sucked and they couldn’t sing very well. The whole market turned toward it. That was all that was getting signed and that was all DJs wanted to spin. It didn’t matter if the songwriting was bad, as long as they used the right default patches, everyone bought it. While VNV was doing 6 minute songs that were very emotional with very solid vocals, we were doing loop-based, super aggressive, kitschy schtick.

Then six years ago Combichrist broke and everyone has jumped on that! The whole market has turned to doing super aggressive, loop-based, kitsch and MMTM is writing 4-5 minute emotional songs with strong vocals. We are doing what we want to do, but we are not doing a very good job at jumping on the bandwagon and trying to be easily marketable.

Tasha: Yeah, that’s for sure.

Rob: We found a market back in the VNV days. We toured, when a lot of other bands couldn’t. We weren’t playing to huge audiences, but we were making money and kept our overhead low. We were perfectly happy and I think we will be able to do the same thing again. I don’t think we are going to go out and compete with all of the top selling bands right now. Sure, I would like it, but that is not the goal that drives me.

Tasha: To have someone say that they really identified with a song and that really helped them through a tough time in their life… Oh god, I love those moments.

Rob: Playing songs I am really proud of live and watching people respond to them is really the thing that pushes my buttons.

What is the creative process like between the two of you?

Rob: Strangely enough, if you look at Dark Matter, Tasha sings songs that I wrote and I sing songs that Tasha wrote. Not every single song, but most of them.

Tasha: You’re right. Deserve, I wrote and you sing.

Rob: Why?, you wrote and I sing. Break Out is really the only one that I wrote and I sing.

Tasha: Stitch, I wrote…

Rob: No. Stitch, I wrote and you sing.

Tasha: You’re right! (laughter) There will be times when I have an idea and I’ll be singing it in my head, and it’s not quite right. Then I will imagine Rob singing it and I will know that that is it. I’ve got it. That’s what happened with The Darkest Days, I was afraid it was too tender, too weepy… I wanted it to rock a little bit, and when I imagined it with Rob’s voice, I knew that was it. It worked!

Rob: We really do pass ideas back and forth. When we say that one of us wrote a song, that isn’t exactly true. Usually one of us starts an idea and the other finishes it. I’ll write two verses and a chorus, and she will turn my chorus into a bridge and write a new killer chorus, which is how we wrote Heaven and Hell. A few times Tasha wrote a verse and a chorus and I will write additional verses and complete the arrangement, like we did on Something Good and The Darkest Days. Occasionally we write songs entirely by ourselves like Rotten Wine and Break Out.

Tasha: Stitch didn’t sound jazzy before I touched it.

Rob: No! It sounded like something off the first Skold album with my vocals and arrangement!! It ended up like The Andrews Sisters.

Tasha: If a song we are writing starts off as industrial rock but ends up somewhere else, that is fine with us. Whereever the process takes it, as long as it is good. We’re not going to try to fit it into the genre by sacrificing quality.

Rob: The few times we did start to have that conversation like, “Is this smart? Should we dump a bunch of distortion on this and pull out the melodic vocals? Should I just bark over it?” It’s not like we didn’t have those conversations while we were putting Dark Matter together.

Tasha: Yes, we did.

Rob: If we did drop that kind of audience-pandering song into the middle of this album it would be pretty transparent. We’d clearly be saying, “Oh shit. We better put something on this album that sounds just like what DJs are already spinning.”

Tasha: When we stop and consider rewriting a song, it has nothing to do with what is going on in the scene. It is about not feeling like we are hitting a hook hard enough, or asking are the dynamics of the arrangement working? What make us really pause and frustrates us is not trying to reel song back into our genre…it is just trying to get it right. We just want to make a good song.

Rob: We don’t tend to argue over writing and arrangement.

Tasha: We argue over mixing and productions. (laughs)

Electronic musical equipment and software has evolved quite a bit over the years, to the point the relatively inexpensive software opens up what can seem like limitless possibilities. Would you say that you have a particular philosophy behind selecting your sonic palette and programming style?

Tasha: Yeah, we use a Mac we purchased in 2001! (laughter)

Rob: Because we started working on these songs in 2001, we have a Mac, not even a Silver Door G4, the one before that! Dark Matter was started and completed on an old Mac running OS 9.2 on Cubase VST 32. We used a ton of software synths and plug-ins. So upgrading in the middle of the process would have meant recreating a lot of work or having to work with it as audio instead of midi. We were also broke for several years due to our war with the IRS. Anyone that tells that you need the latest and greatest gear to finish a great album is full of shit.

Tasha: I just found photos the other day, someone turned two Mac cases like ours into saddlebags for their motorcycle! (laughter)

Rob: And dog beds. (laughter) We don’t really write the same one or two songs over and over again. So we have definitely learned that we can make the broader range of our songwriting sound much more cohesive by creating a single sound design and applying it to each song to varying degrees. This what allows Dark Matter to not get repetitive while remaining cohesive.

Tasha: That said, I can’t wait until we get new equipment!

Is there anything that you feel the current software/equipment DOES NOT do which you would like to see?

Rob: Our DAW is so old, that by the time we start recording the next album on new equipment, it will feel like an advanced alien civilization came down to share their technology with us. (laughter)

There is obviously a big industrial/gothic audience to get your music out to, but are you also trying to promote to a more general crowd? (as the melodic nature of many of the tracks, and general strong songwriting make it seem that the music would cross over well). Or is it a matter of where to best apply your resources, as an independent band?

Rob: To us, Dark Matter has more in common with IAMX, Garbage, NIN, VHS or Beta and Depeche Mode than KMFDM and Ministry. We know that people have referred to our early material as WaxTrax! nostalgia, and I consider that to be a fair comparison. But if you listen to our first collection of songs from our demo, the production quality is horrendous, but the songs were much closer in style to what we are doing now.

Tasha: 1999! technophile!!! (laughter)

Rob: Those songs were probably written in 1998! But it was crossover music that first attracted us to this genre. Garbage, NIN, Depeche Mode, Curve, Smashing Pumpkins, Manson, the Cure… Dark Matter is our return to the music that really got us started. The strong songs and pop accessibility. We started doing kitschier stuff later on.

Tasha: We are More Machine Than Man. (laughter) We did take our name from Return of the Jedi dialogue!

Rob: We really didn’t take MMTM that seriously in the beginning. If we did we might have given the name more thought! (laughter) We are not aiming to be a crossover hit, but the artists that have been huge crossover successes were our earliest influences and remain so. Realistically these days, there is literally no way to market ourselves to a wider audience. We would love for Dark Matter to be well received by a huge audience, but it is hard to promote that widely as an actual indie artist. As I said before, none of the scene labels can offer that kind of promotion. MMTM is probably too metal for Mute, Astralwerks, Nettwerk, and Arts+Crafts and not metal enough for Century Media or Spitfire. We fall into that odd crossover hinterland people can’t pigeonhole.

What do you both do outside of the band?

Tasha: I am a web developer and graphic artist.

Rob: I am a carpenter and specialize in residential remodel.

What are your plans for the near future?

Tasha: We are currently booking a US Tour for this spring.

Rob: It will be as extensive as we can make it. If you are a promoter that runs a regular goth night and events and would like to host the MMTM tour, please feel free to email us! We are touring with all of the sound and lighting that we need play smaller unequipped dance clubs.

Tasha: We do a high impact multimedia show that gets fetishy.

Rob: We will still have a strong video component to our live performance, but we will not be performing behind a transparent screen on this tour. It will still be a MMTM show, but it will be an even better MMTM show!

For more info on More Machine Than Man, check out their newly re-designed website.